Вопросы пропаданцам

В мирах арупы существа не навсегда

Когда Дхамме обучают для прекращения существования (бхавы) (bhavanirodhāya dhamme desiyamāne) умы некоторых антипропаданцев (богов и людей) не успокаиваются, не приобретают уверенности, не двигаются вперед из-за любви к восторгу, наслаждению существованием (bhavasammuditā ).

The Abhidharma, [in the ultimate sense (pāramārthika),] is stainless understanding
with its following, [i.e., the five pure aggregates].24
Understanding (prajñā),25 which will be defined below (ii. 24; vii. 1), is the discernment of factors
[dharmapravicaya].26
Stainless (amala) understanding27 is pure understanding [or understanding without a [positive]
relationship with the fluxes (anāsravaprajñā; vi. 25c, etc.)].28
That which is called the following (anucara) of understanding is its retinue (parivāra), namely, the
five pure aggregates (skandha; i. 7a) that coexist with understanding.29 <4>
Such, in the ultimate sense [pāramārthika],30 is the Abhidharma.
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What are the impure factors [sāsrava]?
4bd. The conditioned factors, with the exception of the (noble) path, are impure; they are
impure because the fluxes adhere to or grow concordantly in them [sam-anuśerate].61
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[Question: – What are the two cessations (nirodha)?]
[Answer:] – They are the cessation due to deliberation (pratisaṃkhyānirodha)71 and the cessation not
due to deliberation (apratisaṃkhyānirodha).72
The three unconditioned factors and [the factors constituting] the truth of the (noble) path are the pure
(anāsrava) factors because the fluxes do not adhere to them.
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[Question:] – Should we understand that all consciousness is the elementary substance consciousness?
[Answer: – No.]
28cd. The elementary substance consciousness is an impure consciousness, because it is the
basis [niśraya] of the arising [of the thought at conception and of all existence until
the mind at death].431
The impure (sāsrava) consciousness, i.e., the mind that does not form part of the (noble) path.
The six elementary substances are presented in the Sūtra (F 49, note) as basis [sādhāraṇa], as the
raison d’être of the arising, i.e., of the thought at conception (pratisaṃdhicitta) and all of existence
until the thought at death (maraṇacitta; cyuticitta). <51>
The pure (nirāsrava) factors are opposed to arising, to existence. Thus the five sensory
consciousnesses, which are always impure, and the mental consciousness, when it is impure, give us
the elementary substance consciousness (Vibhāṣā, 75, 11).
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18. Abandoned by insight (darśanaheya) and by cultivation (bhāvanāheya), and not
to be abandoned (aheya) & the eighteen elements;619 F 78–80
How many elements can be abandoned (hā, prahā; v. 28; vi. 1) by insight into the truths, in other
words, by the path of insight (darśanamārga) or by insight (darśana; vi. 25b)? How many can be
abandoned by cultivation or repeated consideration (bhāvanā) of the truths, in other words, by the
path of cultivation (bhavanāmārga) or by cultivation (bhavanā)? [13 b] How many elements are not to
be abandoned, cannot be abandoned [aheya]?620
BCR.1. The first fifteen elements and the last three elements;621 F 78–80
40ab. (1) The ten [material elements] and the five [sensory consciousnesses] are abandoned
by cultivation. (2) The last three [elements] are, [from the point of view of
abandoning them,] of three kinds, [i.e., abandoned by insight, abandoned by
cultivation, not abandoned].622 <79>
1. The ten material elements, i.e., the sense-faculties and object-fields, and the five sensory
consciousnesses are abandoned by cultivation [bhāvanāheya].
2. The last three [of the eighteen] elements, i.e., the mental faculty [manodhātu], the mental object
[dharmadhātu], and the mental consciousness [manovijñāna], from the point of view of abandoning
them, involve factors of three kinds:
i. (a) eighty-eight [of the ninety-eight] proclivities (anuśaya; v. 4);
(b) with the coexisting (sahabhū) factors – whether these coexisting factors are of the associated
(saṃprayukta) class or of the dissociated (viprayukta) class (ii. 46; conditioning
characteristics [lakṣaṇa] and secondary characteristics [anulakṣaṇa]);
(c) with the possessions (prāpti; ii. 36) of the said proclivities and the said coexisting factors;
(c) with the following (i.e., secondary possessions [anuprāpti] and conditioning characteristics
[lakṣaṇa]) of the said possessions,
are abandoned by insight [darśanaheya];
ii. the other impure [sāsrava] factors:
(a) ten proclivities (v. 5) with the coexisting factors, possessions, etc.;
(b) the wholesome-impure (kuśalasāsrava) and unobscured-non-defined (anivṛtāvyākṛta) (ii. 66)
formations (saṃskāra); 623
(c) the impure non-informative (avijñapti) with its following (iv. 13),
are abandoned by cultivation [bhāvanaheya];
iii. the pure [anāsrava] factors:
(a) the unconditioned factors and
(b) the factors that are part of the (noble) path,
cannot be abandoned [apraheya].

1) либо буддийские мыслители не могли адекватно выразить свою мысль, как это делали их коллеги по цеху, 2) либо кое-кто натягивает сову на глобус. я склоняюсь ко второму варианту.

ибо как формируются доктрины на основе свящ-писов вполне изучено. например, как находят троицу в ветхом завете... тоже самое здесь... к недосказанной нирване можно прикрутить что угодно. [/u]

1) либо буддийские мыслители не могли адекватно выразить свою мысль, как это делали их коллеги по цеху, 2) либо кое-кто натягивает сову на глобус. я склоняюсь ко второму варианту.

Есть еще вариант, что у них было с мышлением все ок. Но читать их стали дураки, вкладывая в их уста свою дурость.

According to Abhidharma (both Sarvāstivāda and Vasubandhu’s Yogācāra leanings):

Conditioned factors (including the mārga factors) arise dependently and cease with the person’s death; they don’t “exist” beyond life.

Unconditioned dharmas like nirvāṇa are not destroyed by death. Nirvāṇa is not a “thing that exists somewhere,” but rather the cessation of the aggregates and defilements. In that sense it is said to “exist” timelessly.

Thus:
The path factors do not continue after the Arhat’s parinirvāṇa (they have done their job).
The unconditioned element (nirvāṇa) is not affected by the death of the Arhat — it is precisely the parinirvāṇa itself.

“Not to be abandoned” (apraheya) means they are not objects of abandonment during the path. After an Arhat’s death, the path factors no longer arise, but the unconditioned dharma (nirvāṇa) is timeless, so in that sense it is not destroyed.

“Not to be abandoned” (apraheya) does not mean they persist after death of an Arhat.
It means:

In the course of practice, one abandons defilements, but one does not abandon the pure factors.
The noble path is to be cultivated, not discarded.
The unconditioned dharmas are timeless and are not subject to “abandoning” because they are not compounded or tainted.

So “apraheya” is a functional distinction about practice and realization, not a statement about post-mortem survival.

но исходя из контекста -- они не отбрасываются во время культивации пути. это настолько очевидно, что даже не понятно, как доморощенные феноменологи это не понимают.